PPRuNe Forums - Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo (2024)

Not so long ago I saw a scientific paper on the effect of false information on learning, which reported the results of an experiment in which subjects who were experts on some subject were given false information about it and then made to take a test. The kicker - the false information was information they knew to be obviously false (say: "appropriate stall recovery in the Q400 involves pulling back on the yoke").

Despite that, though, a statistically significant proportion of them were influenced by the false information. Unfortunately I can't find the study in question, but there are plenty of others in that direction - you can't really ignore anything, fake photos change people's memories, repeating things makes them seem true, denying things doesn't work very well, and perhaps most importantly, fatigue helps you form false memories (although coffee helps).

where do I say that you should pick up a wing with rudder? I certainly didn't teach that. I did say someone showed me that when I was a student pilot. There is a bit of difference between teaching something and having something shown to you as a student.

the rudder can help in many ways though...my ailerons failed once and the rudder got me to the ground ok.

by the way, I met Langweishe's son...william...his advice was never do anything in a turn , except fly the plane...don't fiddle with the radios or anything else. I would add the same thing for level offs, configuration changes and trimming.

Oh, and I am an author too. But what does that have to do with this forum?

Hi! A non-pilot here, just trying to learn…

FDR data show that airframe deice was selected between 21:29 and 21:30. There is no comment about deicing on CVR around that time. However at 21:32, the captain states that he just did a “24-h ice protection test”, but he did not say if he left deicing on. The test is part of Colgan cruise checklist. FO confirms the test at 21:32:58 and then again as part of the checklist completion at 21:39:12. No other comments about deicing are made until “I’ve never deiced”. Does this look like a normal procedure? Should the deicing system (including the REF SPEEDS INCR switch) be operated that inconspicuously?

Now, back to lurking…

finfly1

if following the FAA min standards made you safe, and colgan claims that they met the FAA requirements...why did the plane crash?

therefore, just maybe, the FAA isn't doing enough for safety. I tried to make that clear using irony on the previous page, but that didn't work.

I hope it is clear now.

mike waw

As I understand it the Q400 anti-ice/de-ice system is entirely automatic once engaged and its operation has been checked, subject to continued monitoring. The INCR speeds switch should NEVER be engaged without 1st determining, bugging and then ensuring the associated increased air speeds are flown. This accident is a particularly pointed example of why that last is so important.

This was the one I was after - give people false information after real, make them take a test, and they learn the false information. In that light, training really shouldn't say "watch this video...but the information in it doesn't apply to you".

In that airplanes and the atmosphere will always collaborate against fallible humans in new and surprising ways, there can never be a "guarantee of safety". In fact, as I've oft stated, safety is not a binary "safe/unsafe" condition, but a finite continuum (measured of events per million hours etc.)

does anyone remember, earlier in the thread, that during a sim ride one could get fired for not holding altitude within 100' during stall practice?

I hope some investigating is done in this department.

also, regarding fatigue. one can be so fatigued that one doesn't realize it and therefore couldn't remove himself from a flight. I've seen both pilots fall asleep while in flight of another, unrelated commuter airline flight, many years ago.

Protectthehornet wrote:

“the rudder can help in many ways though...my ailerons failed once and the rudder got me to the ground ok.”

Your ailerons failed?

Now not only are you a prolific poster, but a true aviation hero? WOW!

Someone cut the cable on your Tomahawk?

Captainsmiffy, MU3001A and finfly….We have a true aviation hero here! Stand aside!

I can only recall I think two aircraft that had multiple hydraulic failures, with partial loss or total loss of most flight controls, one crashed just near Old Saigon (C-5) and the other landed at SFO (PAA B-747.)

Yip, I know it is off the subject, but we have a hero here!

:D

From the Jamestown Sun, Jamestown, North Dakota

Published May 18 2009
Pilot salaries stun Congress
The investigation into the commuter plane crash in upstate New York that killed 50 people in February has exposed the long hours and low pay of some regional airline pilots. Lawmakers now are wondering if such working conditions are more widespread and pose safety risks.
WASHINGTON (AP) — The investigation into the commuter plane crash in upstate New York that killed 50 people in February has exposed the long hours and low pay of some regional airline pilots. Lawmakers now are wondering if such working conditions are more widespread and pose safety risks.
Members of Congress said they were stunned by the salaries of the pilots of Continental Connection Flight 3407, employees of the smaller commuter airline Colgan Air Inc. The pilots may have tried to snatch sleep in an airport crew lounge, which is against company policy. The first officer lived with her parents near Seattle and was commuting cross country to work in New Jersey.
“All these things raise questions: Are they an aberration or are FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) standards sufficient? Or are the standards not enforced?” said Democratic Sen. Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation subcommittee on aviation.
Aviation industry experts said the conditions reflect the broad restructuring of the industry after Sept. 11, 2001, when air travel dropped sharply and major airlines began pairing with regional ones. It took the industry years to recover and led to major airline bankruptcies, mergers and management demands for dramatic wage and benefit concessions.
The role of regional airlines has grown. Once considered industry runts, they are now joined at the hip with the big airlines. People who buy a ticket on a major airline often find themselves on a regional carrier for some part of a domestic trip. Passengers often don’t even realize they’re traveling on two airlines.
Regional airlines account for half of all domestic departures and about one-quarter of the passengers. They are the only scheduled service to about 440 communities.
Witnesses at National Transportation Safety Board hearings this past week said it’s possible that many passengers on Flight 3407 the night of Feb. 12 didn’t know the plane and its flight crew belonged not to Continental, but Colgan Air of Manassas, Va.
The twin-engine turboprop experienced an aerodynamic stall as it neared Buffalo Niagara International Airport before plunging into a house. All 49 people aboard and a man in the house were killed. Testimony and documents indicate the captain, Marvin Renslow, and co-pilot Rebecca Shaw made a series of critical errors.
NTSB investigators calculated Shaw was paid just over $16,000. Colgan officials testified that captains such as Renslow earn about $55,000 a year. The company later said Shaw’s salary was $23,900 and that captains earn about $67,000.
Pilot pay is usually based on the size of the aircraft and a pilot’s experience. But the workload and flight schedules at regional airlines are often more demanding than at a major airline, where the planes are larger and make longer but less frequent trips, said Scott Johns, a former Northwest Airlines pilot and air crash investigator.
“I’m not sure how you fix this pay system discrepancy,” he said.
Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, said lower salaries are an industrywide problem. He predicted airlines generally will suffer a shortage of pilots once the economy improves. He denied, however, that safety has been affected.
“Compensation has nothing to do with safety,” Cohen said. “We’re going to defend the quality of our people.”
William Swelbar of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s airline data project noted that until the Buffalo crash, major and regional U.S. air carriers hadn’t had a fatal crash in more than two years.
The vice president of the Air Line Pilots Association, Paul Rice, said salaries vary between companies, but major airline captains typically earn about $120,000 to $125,000. He said senior captains who fly internationally can earn about $180,000.
rrr
On the Net:
NTSB investigation: NTSB - Public Hearing: Buffalo, NY

@ mustangsally

I find your post pathetic.

There are many ways ailerons can get stuck. I don´t know what made you bashing the original poster for sharing his experience.

I had the ailerons of a Pitts stuck during aerobatics, caused by a ballpen somebody lost in the plane. I was able to brake the pen by a lot of force but if it havn´t been a plastic pen I would have been dead.

You have no reason not to believe what protectthehornet was saying.
Do you need that for your Ego ?

Inbalance

mustangsally, you are indeed the pathetic one. A local chap had the ailerons fail on his Bonanza and got it back on the ground with no further damage. You need to get out more.

Report here 200501905

for the record, the aileron problem I had was in a piper turbo arrow 3

the chain jumped the sprocket...over downtown san jose...landed straight in with rudder in KSQL. the approach was over uninhabited area...san jose had too many folks under the flight path.

I don't think of it as heroic, just something I learned along time ago. Back in 1930's, a CAA inspector took off in a plane just out of mx. The ailerons were rigged backwards (sort of like the elevator trim being rigged backwards on the convair that crashed...but that's another thread).

After that, the CAA demanded that the rudder be able to handle such a situation.

and mustang sally...I came up the hard way. CFIIMEI and then on to the airlines. So I have time in tomahawks and jets. And the hardest plane I ever flew was the MU2. The best plane, the DC9...and a gentle cow, the 737 (except for rudder hardovers)

brian and inbalance, thank you. I wasn't looking for a pat on the back...just wanted to share something so that others might have a chance one day.

Best Top 3 Post and discussion threads for System Design and Automation

• The Stick Pusher System, Stick Shaker System and the flap auto pitch trim system
• Speed tape/speed trend arrow, digital speed readout and low speed cue
• Partial automation is a deadly trap
• A .pdf Document Simulation Model Development for Icing
  • units for physical quantities used herein arepresented in U.S. Customary Units. All aerodynamic dataare referenced to the body axis system

• • b: wing span, ft

    
    

  • c : mean aerodynamic chord, ft

  • CA: axial-force coefficient, Axial force/ q S

  • CN: normal-force coefficient, Normal force/ q S

  • CY: side-force coefficient, Side force/ q S

  • Cl: rolling-moment coefficient, Rolling moment/ q Sb

  • Cm: pitching-moment coefficient, Pitching moment/ q S c

  • C

    n: yawing-moment coefficient, Yawing moment/ q Sb

  • CAQ: axial-force coefficient due to pitch rate

  • CNQ: normal-force coefficient due to pitch rate

  • CYP: side-force coefficient due to roll rate

  • CYR: side-force coefficient due to yaw rate

  • ClP: rolling-moment coefficient due to roll rate

  • ClR: rolling-moment coefficient due to yaw rate

  • CmQ: pitching-moment coefficient due to pitch rate

  • CnP: yawing-moment coefficient due to roll rate

  • CnR: yawing-moment coefficient due to yaw rate

  • p, q, r: body-axis roll, pitch, and yaw rates, rad/sec

  • q : free-stream dynamic pressure, lb/ft2

  • S: wing area, ft2

  • V: free-stream velocity, ft/sec

  • *: angle of attack, deg

  • *: angle of sideslip, deg

  • *: prefix for incremental component

  • *: rate of rotation about the velocity vector, rad/sec

  • *b/2V: non-dimensional rotation rate, positive for

    clockwise spin

  • a: aileron deflection, positive when right trailing-edge is

    down and left trailing-edge is up, (

    δa right - δa left)/2, deg

  • f: flap deflection, positive when trailing-edge is down,deg

  • h: horizontal tail deflection, positive when trailing-edge

    is down, deg

  • r: rudder deflection, positive when trailing-edge is left,deg

    • * : denotes font symbol not recognized

    • see .pdf for complete term

clandestino #1380

...My speculation is that it was both pilots' incapacitation brought on by the fatigue.

Maybe add...incapacitation brought on by the shock/surprise of what was happening when their bugs indicated it shouldn't be (forgetting 'the why didn't they see the bricks' issue), the distraction of the conversation they had been having, inexperience and perhaps tendency to not perform well under pressure (captain) and overarching all of this (and exaccerbating the effect of each one), fatigue.

There seems to be some misunderstanding about the ice protection of the Q400.
The procedure calls for "increase ref speed ON" in icing conditions. That switch nor only changes the AOA where the stick shaker starts. It also changes the red tape warning of the stall speed area on the speed tape.

So when you switch on "speed increase" you always have a very visible reminder on your speed tape indicating the now higher speed where the stick shaker will set in.

Operations 2B - Interviews in Buffalo Capt. Dittmar (Checkairman with Colgan) in NTSB- Interview:
http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation...027/417449.pdf

are dangereous habits beeing hammered into young professional heads? FAA approved obviously?
TM